The October Meeting is this Saturday in the Friends’ Lounge of the National Library at 1.30pm. We will be discussing secondary sources on Persuasion.
As reported in our August post, we dedicated our August and September meetings to Persuasion, commemorating the 200th anniversary of its publication. In August we discussed Volume 1, so September, of course, was devoted to Volume 2. Nine members were present – and, as in August, we started by sharing our first impressions, that is, we each shared something that struck us on this particular read.
First impressions of Persuasion Volume 2
Even though by the time we got to the sixth person, contributors were starting to feel they had nothing new to say, somehow, each still found something to add. Funny that!
- Mrs Smith’s revelations (2:9): A few members chose this chapter to discuss, because it feels less well developed than the rest of the book. One member described it as “appallingly drawn out and laborious” and felt that Austen would probably have rewritten it if she’d had the chance. Another member felt that it all comes out in a big rush, and wished the tension had been developed more, that the story of Mr Elliot’s perfidy had been unfolded more slowly. Also, what were his motives re Mrs Clay at the end, she wondered? There was a general feeling that this plot-line was not fully explored. A member suggested, however, that this might be because the lives of the upper echelons weren’t Austen’s main concern. She may, therefore, have felt it unnecessary to fully develop this story.
- The narrative style, the fact that we are largely in Anne’s head, which means we rarely get more direct insight into the other characters. We pretty much see it all from her point-of-view or in terms of its effect on her.
- Mary’s letter to Anne (2:6) is a treasure, and gorgeously comical. It is full of complaints and contradictions, typifying Mary perfectly. It includes the wonderful quote:
but I have my usual luck, I am always out of the way when any thing desirable is going on; always the last of my family to be noticed.
- Anne represents the future. In the second half of the book, Anne starts to come into her own, and seems to represent the woman of the future, an independent self-will woman who is more focused on the future than the past. The ending is positive about the future – except, added another member, there is the caveat regarding more war!
- New society: Related to this idea, said another member, is that the book represents a new direction in Austen’s treatment of aristocracy as a group on the downward slide – they are found wanting. There is a sense that the new society to be led by upper middle class, the professionals.
- Diverse picture of the condition of women of the period. In the second part of the novel there is an impressive array for women of all sorts, from servant and working class, like Nurse Rooke, through the good-humoured women like Mrs Musgrove and Mrs Harville, to the weird representatives of the aristocracy, including Lady Darlymple and her daughter Miss Carteret (whose appearance was such that she would never have been tolerated by Sir Walter except for her birth.) Our member liked this description of Nurse Rooke:
She is a shrewd, intelligent, sensible woman. Hers is a line for seeing human nature; and she has a fund of good sense and observation which, as a companion, make her infinitely superior to thousands of those who having only received ‘the best education in the world,’ know nothing worth attending to.
- Is Anne a mature Fanny? This was a controversial idea, with some agreeing and others resisting the idea. The proposer argued that both resist pressure, both have strong moral values, both nearly lose their “love” to rivals, and both resist pressure/encouragement to marry people they don’t love. Anne is of course different to Fanny – has more power and agency given her social place – and is older and therefore more experienced/mature, but is she a development of that sort of character? One member said that she saw like likenesses between Anne and Elinor.
- Development of Anne and Wentworth’s relationship. This member continued her “forensic” look at the development of Anne and Wentworth’s rel. Gradually, in volume 2, having barely spoken to each other in volume 1, their conversation increases. Anne speaks to him, bravely, at the concert. Why though did the Crofts never see Anne as a possible match for Wentworth (their brother/brother-in-law)?
- Persuasion and Self-interest. Last meeting we discussed Lady Russell’s advice to Anne, which found wanting while others felt had some justification. In volume 2, Lady R’s judgement, in seeing Mr Elliot as a good suitor for Anne, is called into question again. She’s also a member of the aristocracy, which is not presented positively in the book. Yet, in the novel’s resolution, Lady R is treated well. Is this because her advice, poor though it is (or turns out to be) stems not from self-interest? And, what about Mrs Smith? She was prepared not to share her knowledge of Mr Elliot’s perfidious character with Anne. She gives a reason for this, but is there some self-interest in her decision not to influence or persuade? She, too, though is treated well in the novel’s resolution.
From these first impressions, our discussion roamed even more widely.
We talked about the movie adaptations. Most of us don’t like the most recent adaptation, seeing Anne’s running through the streets of Bath as inappropriate and out of character. One member though reminded us to consider the way cinema needs to use visual language to convey meanings in the text. True, others agreed, but the visual language has to feel right! One member asked why Austen adaptations don’t use voice-over more often.
One member suggested that Persuasion is a sadder book than other Austens. It seems to have more illness, accidents and deaths. Is this reflective of where Austen was herself in her life? And, should we feel sorry for Elizabeth Elliot? Austen doesn’t explore her reaction to Mr Elliot’s apparent interest in Anne. At the end, she is left a sad character, likely to spend the rest of her father’s life by his side, increasingly isolated.
It might be a sadder book, but it has some wonderful scenes and we shared a couple of favourite social gathering scenes. The experience of social gatherings is something Austen so perfectly captures. One example in Persuasion is when Sir Walter and Elizabeth appear at the White Hart to hand out their invitation cards to their evening card-party. It had been a happy gathering, “a party of steady old friends”, until:
Alarming sounds were heard; other visitors approached, and the door was thrown open for Sir Walter and Miss Elliot, whose entrance seemed to give a general chill. Anne felt an instant oppression, and, wherever she looked, saw symptoms of the same. The comfort, the freedom, the gaiety of the room was over, hushed into cold composure, determined silence, or insipid talk, to meet the heartless elegance of her father and sister. How mortifying to feel that it was so! (2:10)
Another is in the next chapter when the card-party is underway:
The evening came, the drawing-rooms were lighted up, the company assembled. It was but a card-party, it was but a mixture of those who had never met before, and those who met too often—a common-place business, too numerous for intimacy, too small for variety; (2:11)
We discussed various aspects of Austen’s writing, including her plotting. We commented on how, in Persuasion, she uses overheard conversations (Wentworth overhearing Anne and Capt. Harville) and letters (Mr Elliot’s letter to Mrs Smith’s late husband) to share information. (One member suggested that this letter between Mr Elliot and Mr Smith is an example of “a conversation” between men in Austen.) We talked about the various ways in which Austen’s women characters learn about men’s wickedness, such as Colonel Brandon telling Elinor about Willoughby, and Darcy’s letter telling Elizabeth about Wickham.
In terms of style we also briefly discussed the cancelled chapter 10 (replaced by chapters 10 and 11) which many of us had read before, but only one for this meeting. She described the original chapter, which relates the coming together of Anne and Wentworth at Kellynch-hall, and suggested that it is believable but “tamer” than the published revised version.
Also on the style issue, a member raised the humour suggesting that it is very different in this novel. It’s more sly, clever. While Sir Walter and Mary can be quite comedic, they are no match, for example, for Mr Collins.
This brought us again to characters, particularly poor Mary. Yes, she’s irritating with her hypochondria and focus on precedence and status, but do these just indicate that she’s an unhappy person? She’s warmer than big sister Elizabeth, and she does at least write to Anne. She also appreciates Anne’s help!
One member suggested that the book is a “brilliant portrayal of a lovelorn woman’s interpretation of the behaviours of her ex-fiancé”.
Interestingly, we didn’t talk a lot about its overall theme – perhaps because we did that in detail when we read it in 2006 (before our blog). The topic though is sure to come up next month when we share our readings of secondary sources/critics on the book.
Meanwhile, there were questions about how well “finished” the book is. Would Austen, we wondered, have worked more on it had she had the time? One member shared a critic’s comment that Persuasion is one of the few novels people wish were longer – and no-one present disagreed. (Could its resolution have been developed more?) Regardless, it remains one of Austen’s most loved novels and we did enjoy our slow read.
The September Meeting is this Saturday, 16th September at 1.30pm in the Friends’ Lounge of the National Library. We will be discussing Volume 2 of Persuasion.
This year being the 200th anniversary of the publication of Persuasion, we are devoting the second half of the year to it, starting with our usual slow read. Eight enthusiastic members turned up for the discussion – and a very fine discussion it was.
We started by sharing our first impressions! That is, we each shared one thing that struck us on this read. Now, we have of course all read Persuasion before – most of us many times – so this “one thing” was not intended to be the most important thing about volume 1, but something that particularly captured our attention this read.
First impressions of Persuasion Volume 1
- Gender aspects: Austen creates some strong gender roles in the novel, such as in the Crofts, and Lady Elliot. Mrs Croft is presented as a strong practical woman, and our member felt Austen admired her. It was also commented that women in this novel are not seen practising the “womanly” arts of needlework, though they do play piano.
- Description of unattached women: This book has a large number of unattached women – Lady Russell, Mrs Clay, Elizabeth and Anne Elliot, the Musgrove sisters – and our member was interested in the ways Austen describes these women, their different statuses/positions. She also commented that Anne is a lovely yet interesting character, which is a combination that can be hard to achieve.
- The time Austen takes to establish Anne, the novel’s protagonist: Austen starts with Sir Walter, Elizabeth, and Lady Russell. We don’t really see her operating until she visits Mary Musgrove, at which time her character comes over well.
- The Cinderella aspect: the Cinderella story comes through strongly, with Lady Russell as the “wicked stepmother” and Mary and Elizabeth the “ugly sisters”. But, is Anne presented as almost too patient.
- Lady Russell’s value: The above comment result in this member, who had planned to discuss Captain Wentworth, jumping to Lady Russell’s defence. She felt Lady Russell had had Anne’s best interest at heart, and that at the time of the broken engagement Captain Wentworth was indeed not a good prospect. (After all, look at what happened when Fanny’s mother in Mansfield Park married a man with prospects, she said!) Austen’s description of Frederick suggests he was improvident, and believed himself lucky. This resulted in a lot of discussion about Lady Russell. Some argued that, with the book being about “class vs merit”, about the decline of the aristocracy and the rise middle classes, Lady Russell’s aristocratic ideals and expectations, make her a negative influence. So, is she a beneficent godmother or wicked stepmother?
- Attitudes to class: Austen’s acerbic views on lower aristocracy, represented by Sir Walter Elliot and Elizabeth in particular, versus her presentation of “the lower levels”. They may not all be “the brightest buttons” (e.g. Musgroves) but are seen positively.
- Sisters’ behaviour: Louisa and Henrietta’s behaviour is more “modern” than that of young single women in the earlier novels. They go for long walks on their own (i.e. unsupervised) with men, for example. They have more freedom, in other words. Is this Austen heralding a transition in social behaviour!
- Structure: Austen carefully structures her novel to ensure the plot is logical and the characters believable, so, for example, Anne’s caring for young Walter sets up Anne’s character as a caring and competent person so that when the Lyme fall occurs we accept Anne’s role and expectations of her. Austen also uses parallels/dichotomies to set up contrasting ways of being or acting, such as Sir Walter versus Admiral Croft as examples of men, or the Musgrove sisters versus the Elliot sisters as example of sisterly behaviour.
From these first impressions, our discussion flowed freely back and forth from idea to idea – and it was a challenge to capture! Apologies to attendees if I missed or have misrepresented your gem of an idea.
We talked about Austen’s skills as a novelist, with one member continuing the idea of the slow way in which Anne’s character is established, to talk about the development of her renewed acquaintance with Captain Wentworth. She described how he doesn’t appear until Chapter 7, and that from then on there are no real verbal communications between him and Anne until the Lyme accident. Their relationship is conveyed, until then, through thoughts, reactions and physical actions. For example, he does things for her, showing a care for her wellbeing. Anne often misinterprets his actions. But the reader sees it differently, such as Captain Wentworth noticing Mr Elliot’s response to seeing Anne at Lyme.
Austen develops her characters carefully. Captain Wentworth is presented with a few options for a wife, particularly Louisa and Henrietta. He had made rather facetious comments to his sister, Mrs Croft, about being an easy catch, though in fact he was looking for substance. He has to learn, though, the different between “strength of mind” and “wilfulness” (as Louisa is at Lyme). Austen also presents us with alternative beaus for Anne, including Mr Elliot, and Captain Benwick who, like Anne, is educated and reflective.
We noted that this book contains more physical description of place – of Lyme, in particular – than we see in her other books, and felt that this indicates her love of Lyme. Conversely, we also felt that Anne’s dislike of Bath reflects Austen’s own. We also noted her use of weather and the seasons to convey mood (the pathetic fallacy that we discussed in a meeting last year). Much of the action of this volume takes place in autumn, which can be a melancholy month, underpinning Anne’s mood:
The sweet scenes of autumn were for a while put by—unless some tender sonnet, fraught with the apt analogy of the declining year, with declining happiness, and the images of youth and hope, and spring, all gone together, blessed her memory.
We also noted that this is the only book which is given a very specific time period – covering the period of Napoleon’s exile at Elba.
We admired the economy with which Austen describes important action, in this case the fall at Lyme. It’s all conveyed in a very few sentences.
We discussed Austen’s contribution to the novel. We believe that while she didn’t write the first romantic novels, she did spearhead realistic rather than sensational writing.
We commented on the humour, such as the Lyme locals wanting “to enjoy the sight of a dead young lady”! And of course on Austen’s use of irony, such as “the kind friends” who had passed on to Sir Walter and Elizabeth, Mr Elliot’s disparaging remarks about them.
Appearance is a significant issue in the book, and we talked briefly about Sir Walter, and Elizabeth’s misguided certainty that Mrs Clay was not a threat because Sir Walter disliked freckles. But, appearance is also discussed in relation to our two protagonists. Captain Wentworth had, according to Anne, not changed at all in the seven plus years since they’d last met, while he sees that she’s “altered” and barely recognisable (like Cinderella, added our Cinderella-story member!) We discussed how Anne had spent those seven years. It was suggested that Austen is asking us to consider how character is formed. Her heart was broken, and yet she quietly gets on with her life. She is the overlooked middle daughter, and yet is important to the family.
A member shared Sir Walter’s initial thoughts on not wanting to rent Kellynch Hall to a naval person, suggesting they point to two ongoing issues in the novel – status and appearance:
Yes; it is in two points offensive to me; I have two strong grounds of objection to it. First, as being the means of bringing persons of obscure birth into undue distinction, and raising men to honours which their fathers and grandfathers never dreamt of; and secondly, as it cuts up a man’s youth and vigour most horribly;…
We talked a little about the title, which, although not chosen by Austen, is apt and suggests her family, whom we believe titled it, understood the book well. A member noted that the word “persuasion” has different meanings. One, “to persuade”, that is, to encourage someone to believe or do something, is the meaning most often considered in discussions of the book. However, “a persuasion” can also refer to a set of attitudes or beliefs. We look forward to seeing how these two meanings play out in the second volume.
Members mentioned other issues that are discussed in the novel, including:
- education. The Musgroves place little value on it, worrying about Charles Hayter spending too much time studying, whereas for Anne, reading and study are important.
- silly behaviour. Austen makes a point of showing us silly behaviour, such as Mary’s self-centredness, Mrs Musgrove’s blindness regarding “poor Richard”, Sir Walter’s stupidity (starting with an inability to manage his finances effectively), and Elizabeth’s blindness re Mrs Clay.
It might sound from all this that our meeting was bland, with no disagreements, but that wouldn’t be a true Jane Austen meeting, now would it! We didn’t all agree on Lady Russell, and neither did all agree with the member who “felt a bit sorry” for Elizabeth! Another member ventured the idea that Louisa and Henrietta got on “too well”, particularly given they were vying for Captain Wentworth but others disagreed, feeling that the rivalry wasn’t a strong one (unlike that between the Bertram sisters in Mansfield Park). What we did all seem to agree on, though, is that Persuasion is a lovely book!
We concluded our discussion with a member reading excerpts from Austen’s letter to her niece Fanny about the book, in which she suggested that Fanny wouldn’t like it, and that the “heroine is almost too good for me”. Austen was dead 4 months later. We all wondered how much more work she may have done on the novel, had she lived longer.
The August meeting is this Saturday, August 19th, at 1.30pm in the Friends’ Lounge of the National Library of Australia. We will be discussing the first volume of Persuasion.
Members of JASACT met on Saturday 15th July to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Jane Austen’s death in the foyer of the National Library of Australia. Wine was drunk, a door prize was presented and a number of toasts to Jane Austen ensured the conviviality of the meeting.
Members had been asked to bring either an obituary, a eulogy or extracts from the novels, letters or juvenilia to read in celebration of our favourite author. The choices were varied, revealing the multi-faceted genius we all admire.
A member had recently returned from England and reported on an exhibition in Winchester, The Mysterious Miss Austen, which included five portraits together for the first time. One, in a private collection, has not been seen in public for more than 40 years. A number of pieces in Austen’s hand were on loan from the British Library; the alternative ending to Persuasion and Volume the Second of the Juvenilia.
Another member turned to D.W. Harding’s essay Regulated Hatred in her search for the real Austen. Harding argues that Austen “peppered her novels with encrypted messages” which he calls “unexpected astringencies”. They are embedded in dialogue, authorial comment and caricatures revealing a “ hatred” of aspects of the society in which she lived, expressing her feelings without offending. Harding argues that part of her aim was to find a means of spiritual survival in the era in which she lived.
Two letters were read, both written to Cassandra; the first dated Saturday 7th January 1796 about dancing with Tom Lefroy, praised for the youthfulness of the voice and the effortless nature of the prose and the wit; the second dated Saturday 27th October 1798, which reveals not only Austen’s acerbic wit but how much they travelled, as well as the problems her travelling mother presented.
A favourite passage from Persuasion was read:
Prettier musings of high-wrought love and eternal constancy, could never have passed along the streets of Bath, than Anne was sporting with from Camden-place to Westgate buildings. It was almost enough to spread purification and perfume all the way.
And a playlet from the Juvenilia, ‘The Mystery’ was ‘performed’ as an example of what a ‘mad’ person Austen was.
Another member returned to her recreation of the Austen quilt to remember another facet of the author and the mathematical and creative difficulty of the task. She also expressed sadness for the potential lost as result of Austen’s early death, asking “what would she have written if she had lived on”.
A eulogy was read lamenting how little we really know about Austen because of the family’s successful efforts to conceal aspects of her character and her life. The eulogy focused on what we do know and ended with the reading of a poem written in 1806 Oh Mr Best you’re very bad, demonstrating Austen’s wicked sense of humour.
And last but not least, a member read a quote from Lord David Cecil stating that if he “were in doubt as to the wisdom of one of my actions” he wouldn’t consult Flaubert or Dostoyevsky, or trust the judgement of Tolstoy but he would “worry for weeks and weeks” if he “incurred the disapproval of Jane Austen”. She then read a “toast” to Jane Austen by Rudyard Kipling, followed by her own tribute to Austen, including “ I sit with Jane when I am feeling frail and walk with her when I’m not.” To her Austen is the “gold standard and at that, with thanks to Tina Turner, she burst into a rendition of “You’re simply the best, better than all the rest”.
The meeting ended with coffee and a quiz. All of the contributions were collected so that copies can be made to be distributed to all those present.
It was a memorable event.
The July meeting is this Saturday, July 15th. Members are invited to a wake to commemorate the death 200 years ago of Jane Austen. A table has been booked in the foyer of the National Library of Australia for 1.30pm so that wine can be drunk and speeches made in memory of Jane.